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	<title>LDS &#38; Evangelical Conversations</title>
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		<title>LDS &#38; Evangelical Conversations</title>
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		<title>An Open Letter to Fellow Evangelicals</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/an-open-letter-to-fellow-evangelicals/</link>
		<comments>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/an-open-letter-to-fellow-evangelicals/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelical]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[Over the past 180 years the Evangelical world has had two primary missions in response to Mormonism. The first was to protect our own sheep, the second was to call Mormons to repentance and motivate them to join the fellowship &#8230; <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/an-open-letter-to-fellow-evangelicals/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1995&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over the past 180 years the Evangelical world has had two primary missions in response to Mormonism. The first was to protect our own sheep, the second was to call Mormons to repentance and motivate them to join the fellowship of true believers. These were both accomplished by pointing out the heresies inherent in Mormonism and by drawing questions to the trustworthiness of Joseph Smith and Mormon origins. I hope to persuade that the time is now upon us to consider a new approach to Mormonism. I do not wish to criticize the way we have historically approached Mormonism. On the contrary I think the two overall missions have been praiseworthy and Biblically motivated.  I do not by any means think that Mormonism stands with historic, orthodox Christianity. I do not think the LDS church teaches truth in regards toward the nature of God. I think the LDS church draws the majority of those it teaches away from the Gospel as taught by Jesus and his apostles. I do not think that Joseph Smith bears the marks of a trustworthy prophet.  Despite my continued stance against Mormonism it’s becoming clear to me that a new set of circumstances is now upon us. The signs of a new season are showing and we need to pause for a moment and consider our efforts and the allocation of our resources.</p>
<p><strong>A New Day</strong><br />
We are entering a new day. The world of Mormonism has changed significantly in the seven years in which I’ve explored it. <span id="more-1995"></span> As many have observed, the internet has sparked an information revolution.  Materials are widely available and the ability to collaborate and unify with like-minded people has increased tremendously. This has had a tremendous effect on traditional Mormon debates. I’m flabbergasted to see faithful Mormons agree with Evangelicals on the facts of such things as the Kinderhook Plates and the Adam-God theory much less Joseph Smith’s Polyandry and his non-translation of the Kirkland Egyptian Papers. The focus of the debates has changed from “is it true” to “does it matter”.  That is a monumental shift.</p>
<p>In addition, non-traditional Mormon voices are beginning to form and they are being heard.  The censoring of the “September Six” is not likely to happen in today’s environment.  If such an attempt were made by Mormon authorities it would not go well for them.  In many ways such efforts would only make those “un-correlated” voices more clearly heard because the controversy would add attention to their work. <a href="http://mormonexpression.com/2011/04/21/130-grant-palmer/" target="_blank">Grant Palmer was correct</a> when he predicted that church discipline would only increase sales of his book “Insider’s View on Mormon Origins”. Many disaffected and “New Order” Mormons <a href="http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/article_e8797b2c-7b41-52b1-8a3c-f0bcb6271a4a.html" target="_blank">may even hope</a> for church discipline as they continue to speak out on a number of topics.</p>
<p>In many ways our concerns about Mormon origins and the character of Joseph Smith are being carried further and farther by those still inside the church.  Ex-Mormons, New Order Mormons, Disaffected Mormons and even some <a href="http://mormonstories.org/?p=2414" target="_blank">BYU professors</a> and other <a href="http://mormonstories.org/?p=205" target="_blank">faithful Mormons</a> are carrying this message forward. Their words about these concerns travel further and farther because it is often wrapped in the package of “Mormon” rather than Evangelical. A perceived friend is more trusted than a perceived enemy.</p>
<p>For many reasons we Evangelicals have been viewed as the enemy.  We are not at fault for all of those reasons.  Mormonism began with a strong polemic against traditional Christianity and hasn’t let up.  In addition we have a Biblical mandate to defend against false doctrines and false prophets.  We’ve been correct in taking a stand against the false ideas Joseph Smith presented.  Sadly that stand has not always been carried out in love.  Evangelicals who think it is appropriate to literally slam their doors on Mormons or in any other way treat them inhospitably have not been the best example of the love of Christ. Those that have intentionally exaggerated or misconstrued Mormon beliefs have given Mormons plenty of reason to view our message and our intentions skeptically. But reasons and motivations for the animosity aside; we need to recognize that the way Mormons perceive us stands in the way of our hope to carry the true Gospel forward.  I think we need a new strategy and I think the time to aggressively change modes is now.</p>
<p><strong>Why Change Now</strong><br />
Recently Elder Marlin K. Jensen <a href="http://newmormonapostasy.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">conducted a Q&amp;A</a> at Utah State University.  In that session Elder Jensen stated:</p>
<blockquote><p>“The fifteen men really do know, and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having right now; largely over these issues.”</p></blockquote>
<p>This statement isn’t all that revealing in terms of the suspected number of people who are now losing their faith in Mormonism (whether they officially resign or remain members is another topic). What’s remarkable about this statement is that it’s being stated by Elder Jensen, Church Historian and a member of the Quorum of the 70. The real news in his statement is that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 are aware that people are losing faith and they are aware of what is causing them to lose faith. That Elder Jensen states this in any kind of public forum is significant. The effects of this apostasy are being felt. In addition the LDS church’s growth rate in the United States is hovering somewhere near its birth rate (which is also dropping). Finally, Generation Y is less committed to the faith of their parents than any generation before it.  I do not believe that any sort of significant change will take place within the LDS church to change these trends.  The church is too bureaucratic and too invested to make a significant risk that may backfire.  In addition the age of the leadership does not incline them to take risks.  At best the church will make apologetic answers from unofficial resources such as FAIR more broadly available.  But I do not believe this will stem the tide.  </p>
<p>People discover questions that threaten the LDS church from search engines not from Gospel Doctrine classes.  Those same search engines are already providing these apologetic answers and they are proving to be largely ineffective.  Publishing these answers in a manual is only taking a step backwards in technology.  Additionally, providing answers in official venues has a double edge, publishing these questions under the church seal reveals them to members who are already disinclined from reading anything that is not officially published by the church. </p>
<p>I predict in the next 20 years there will be a radical shift within the LDS church. If Mitt Romney becomes President that shift may occur sooner (due to heightened media scrutiny).  Many people will leave the Salt Lake branch either because they no longer believe the message or because they believe the church is making compromises that it shouldn’t make. We’ve already seen the pattern of this behavior in the <a href="http://mormonstories.org/?p=801" target="_blank">Community of Christ</a> and the <a href="http://sourceflix.com/called-to-be-free/">Worldwide Church of God</a>.</p>
<p>In that sort of environment the LDS church will need friends.  Many may be glad to see the organization crumble and hope for its entire evaporation.  I do not.  I believe the organization of the LDS church can be separated from the heresies of Mormonism.  There is much good in the organization and in the people of the LDS church. What doesn’t directly conflict with the authentic Gospel of Jesus should be preserved if at all possible. Jesus is out to make all things new.</p>
<p>If you disagree with me about the organization, I still think it would be appropriate for you to consider changing strategies. Your Mormon friends and neighbors in this time of change will need friends. I’m alarmed and discouraged by the great many ex-Mormons who become secular agnostics or atheists. This is in part the bad fruit of Mormonism. As the saying goes; “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”  Another part of this is the rising cultural shift toward secularism. A third part has to do with the way Evangelicals are perceived by Mormons. We are rarely viewed as helpful or friendly by Mormons. In our efforts to stand strongly against heresy we’ve become viewed as the opposition. For many in the midst of a crisis of faith the idea of joining in worship with Evangelicals is immediately rejected because of the preconditioned view Mormons have of Evangelicals. A Mormon missionary in distress is not likely to seek out a Protestant minister for help. Again, this isn’t entirely our fault, but perception is the reality that we must deal with.  We must make an extra effort to overcome perception. We must do what we can to help Mormons see us as a friendly and helpful face in the midst of a faith crisis.</p>
<p><strong>A New Strategy</strong><br />
For these reasons I believe we need a new strategy.  I think we need to largely abandon our role in exposing Joseph Smith and Mormon origins.  As I’ve mentioned, I think this work will continue at the hands of Mormons and will have greater traction than anything we could hope to produce. The role “Rough Stone Rolling” has had in changing the tone of the debate should be evidence enough. Terryl Givens has a forth coming book on the evolution and progression of Mormon doctrines. This book will undoubtedly challenge the notion that many Mormon doctrines have been static. Works such as these will continue to erode the traditional Mormon narrative. Our best efforts at expose’ can’t do better than these in terms of effectively demonstrating the LDS church to not be what it historically has claimed to be. The era of Joseph Smith being viewed as a trustworthy figure is closing one internet search result at a time both inside and outside the church.</p>
<p>Instead I think we need to focus on explaining how and why we live out our faith. Many of us have effectively learned how to communicate and frame language in a way that Mormons are familiar with. We need to talk more about the advantages of grace over legalism. We need to proclaim the heart of living solely in the New Covenant. We need to explain better the beauty we see in the Trinity. We need to talk more openly about our own struggles in faith and how we overcame them. We need to better explain appropriate hermeneutics. We need to explain clearly what we mean by “inerrant” and how that differs from “literal”. We need to more boldly proclaim our confidence that the Bible was transmitted throughout history reliably.  Many are already doing all of these things, but we need to step up these messages at the expense of talking less about Joseph Smith.</p>
<p>Rest assured, Joseph Smith is being talked about and will continue to be talked about. But don’t spoil your future witness by leading with his failures. Continue to resist his influence. Boldly state when asked about him that you think he’s a false prophet. But don’t get into details. If you are asked for details share them slowly and cautiously. Be confident that everything you know can and will be discovered. The heart of your message is not the bad fruit of Joseph Smith, the heart of your message is the hope that lives within you.  Stick to your message. Instead of making you and your ministry the place Mormons become disenfranchised with their faith become the place where they can safely ask “what’s next”. Become a recovery center for the spiritually wounded rather than an artillery range against Joseph Smith. Though some are still converted to Mormonism, the LDS church is not the threat it once was and mostly likely never will be again. I wouldn’t want even a single Evangelical converted into Mormonism but I don’t believe guarding our sheep needs to be our chief focus any longer.</p>
<p>Some may be tempted to disregard what I’m saying. I’ll be branded by some as a compromiser. I can assure you I am not compromising. Instead I’m calling us to see what even the Mormon apostles recognize; the times have changed. We have a new mission. Let us recognize that our battle is not against Mormon flesh and blood but rather Mormon powers and principalities. </p>
<p>Begin your transition. It’s time to be spiritual healers. It’s time to be pastors. Let us no longer erect bulwarks against those lost to Mormonism. Let us now build bridges for those Mormonism has lost.</p>
<p><em>NOTE: I think the “<a href="http://www.wiics.org/transitions" target="_blank">Transitions</a>” study produced by Western Institute for Intercultural Studies is a great start. Let’s build on it.</em></p>
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		<title>Genesis 1-3: History or Allegory?</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/genesis-1-3-history-or-allegory/</link>
		<comments>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/genesis-1-3-history-or-allegory/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Evangelical]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[Guest post written by Eric Many of the posts in this blog, and even more so the discussions that usually follow, have highlighted the differences between Mormonism and traditional or evangelical Christianity. However, there is at least one area where &#8230; <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/genesis-1-3-history-or-allegory/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1993&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Guest post written by Eric</em></p>
<p>Many of the posts in this blog, and even more so the discussions that usually follow, have highlighted the differences between Mormonism and traditional or evangelical Christianity. However, there is at least one area where evangelicals may differ more among themselves and Mormons may differ more among themselves than the two religious traditions differ from each other. And that has to do with how to understand the first three chapters of Genesis: Should the accounts of the Creation and of the Fall be viewed as real events that happened in history, or should they be viewed primarily as allegory?</p>
<p>How believers in the Bible answer that question could have significant implications. For evangelicals, those implications were detailed in an excellent cover story, &#8220;<a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/june/historicaladam.html">The Search for the Historical Adam</a>,&#8221; published last year in <i>Christianity Today</i> magazine. The article pointed out that while the traditional Christian view, included in some denominations&#8217; statements of faith, is that Adam and Eve were the historical parents of the human race, that belief is about to collide (if it hasn&#8217;t already) with research into genetic diversity that shows that the existing human race could not have descended from two individuals a few thousand years ago. Just as in the past century or two science has forced most educated Christians to abandon a belief that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, the article suggested, it is becoming just as clear that defending any idea of two common human ancestors is scientifically untenable.</p>
<p>Part of what is at stake for many adherents of evangelicalism (Catholicism too) is the understanding of original sin being traceable to Adam (and Eve too, although she&#8217;s mentioned less often). Also, the writings of Paul develop complex arguments seemingly based on the historicity of Adam, and the genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel of Luke traces Jesus&#8217; earthly lineage to Adam.</p>
<p>Even though we Mormons don&#8217;t believe in the doctrine of original sin, the problem of Adam and Eve is no less acute for us, since we also accept the New Testament as scripture. Additionally, many church leaders, including Joseph Smith, have clearly assumed the historicity of Adam and Eve. Smith even said the Garden of Eden had been located in what is now Missouri.</p>
<p>For many evangelicals, and probably an even higher percentage of Mormons, to question the historicity of the Creation and Fall accounts strikes at a foundation of the Christian faith. Such a view is behind the attempt of many evangelicals to promote <a href="http://www.intelligentdesign.org/">intelligent design</a>, which claims that there is scientific evidence of a Creator; smaller numbers, usually from the fundamentalist wing of evangelicalism, have fought against any teaching in public schools that advanced forms of life developed over millions of years. And while the LDS church has no doctrine denying evolution, it isn&#8217;t difficult to find Mormons who interpret verses such as <a href="http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/6.48?lang=eng">Moses 6:48</a> to support a belief that no death existed before the Fall, which if true would seem to preclude evolution.</p>
<p>But there are evangelicals and Mormons who disagree with the prevailing views. Most prominent among such evangelicals is DNA scientist extraordinaire <a href="http://www.nih.gov/about/director/">Francis Collins</a>, who believes that humankind came about through the randomness of natural selection, that while God set life in motion, how we turned out was a matter of chance. Brigham Young University biologist <a href="http://blog.beliefnet.com/flunkingsainthood/2010/09/why-mormons-should-embrace-evolution-byu-biology-professor-steven-peck.html">Steven Peck</a> seemingly has adopted a similar view, and has written that he is proud to have descended from apes. Yet both men have reconciled their faiths with what they see science clearly telling them.</p>
<p>Is there a necessary conflict between science and believing that the first three chapters of Genesis are part of the inspired word of God? I am writing to suggest that the answer is no.</p>
<p>In my view, science becomes a problem for the believer in the Bible only when we try to understand the Bible as telling us something the authors never intended to teach us. The Bible (and for us Mormons, other scripture) isn&#8217;t intended to be a scientific textbook. And the text of Genesis 1-3 gives us clues that neither is it intended to be seen as history, but rather as a way of conveying divinely inspired truth about the relationship between God and humankind.</p>
<p>In other words, Genesis 1-3 teaches truth even if it isn&#8217;t history.</p>
<p>In a <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/be-a-man/#comment-24742">comment</a> earlier in this blog, blog host Tim said:<br />
<blockquote>I don&#8217;t deny that inerrancists generally reject theistic evolution. What I&#8217;m saying is that if the internal textual evidence were clearer (similar to the parables), it wouldn&#8217;t be a rejection of inerrancy to say that Genesis 1-3 are an allegory. There is a difference between literalism and inerrancy.</p></blockquote>
<p>I would argue that such textual evidence does exist, opening the way for us to take Genesis 1-3 seriously without taking it literally. My interest in doing so isn&#8217;t intend to weaken anyone&#8217;s faith in Genesis; on the contrary, I&#8217;m concerned that by trying to make Genesis say more than God intended it to, we set up an unnecessary barrier to faith.</p>
<p>Here, briefly, are what I see as some of the signs that Genesis 1-3 shouldn&#8217;t be viewed literally:
<ul>
<li>The account is full of blatant symbols that suggest a truth that goes beyond history, among them the tree of life, the tree of knowledge and a villain in the form of a despised animal. Even the name Adam is simply a Hebrew word for &#8220;man&#8221; (or &#8220;human&#8221;), and Eve&#8217;s name comes from a word meaning &#8220;living.&#8221; In this way, the story is written to apply to every man and every woman rather than to two specific individuals.</li>
<li>The structure of the creation account in Genesis 1 seems to be written in an order designed for literary purposes. For example, the first day parallels the fourth, the second day parallels the fifth, and the third day parallels the sixth. It would make no sense as history to make plants before the sun, but it does make sense if the writer is trying to evoke a sense of order and awe.</li>
<li>A creation account starting in Genesis 2:4 directly contradicts the order of events in the account beginning in 1:1. It makes more sense to see the accounts as having two different purposes than it does to reconcile the factual details.</li>
<li>There&#8217;s a huge disconnect between Genesis 3 (which ends with the ejection from Eden) and Genesis 4 (which tells of Cain and Abel). The latter presupposes the existence of an agrarian society as well as of other human populations, which makes no sense with a literal reading of what comes before.</li>
</ul>
<p>So if Genesis 1-3 doesn&#8217;t teach science or history, what does it teach? For starters, that God had a purpose in creating us. That God gave us free will, and that our decisions have consequences, including the misery that sin brings. That what God created is good. That the making of humankind is the pinnacle, even the ultimate purpose, of God&#8217;s creation. That we were created in God&#8217;s image.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not suggesting that there are no problems with taking an allegorical approach to understanding Genesis 1-3. But in our quest to know what &#8220;really happened,&#8221; it becomes easy to lose perspective on the broader truths of what God is using this ancient, inspired writing to teach us.</p>
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		<title>Loving Jesus and His Religion</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/loving-jesus-and-his-religion/</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[lds]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jesus]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelicalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelical]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormonism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/?p=1988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[an appropriate response video<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1988&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>an appropriate response video</p>
<span style="text-align:center; display: block;"><a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/loving-jesus-and-his-religion/"><img src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/Ru_tC4fv6FE/2.jpg" alt="" /></a></span>
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		<slash:comments>6</slash:comments>
	
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		<title>My Racist Past</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/my-racist-past/</link>
		<comments>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/my-racist-past/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelical]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelicalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[lds]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mitt Romney]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormonism]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/?p=1984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John Piper, a major Evangelical leader in the Reformed tradition recently released a new book &#8220;Bloodlines&#8221; dealing with his own sin of racism.  You can download the book for free here. In conjunction with the video Crossways has released this &#8230; <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/my-racist-past/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1984&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Piper, a major Evangelical leader in the Reformed tradition recently released a new book &#8220;Bloodlines&#8221; dealing with his own sin of racism.  You can download the book for<a href="http://cdn.desiringgod.org/Bloodlines.Piper.pdf" target="_blank"> free here</a>.</p>
<p>In conjunction with the video Crossways has released this short documentary in which Piper revisits his home in South Carolina and discusses his history with race and racism.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m proud to see Piper name racism for what it is and to make such a public confession.</p>
<div class='embed-vimeo' style='text-align:center;'><iframe src='http://player.vimeo.com/video/28323716' width='400' height='300' frameborder='0'></iframe></div>
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		<slash:comments>8</slash:comments>
	
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		<title>Be a Man</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/be-a-man/</link>
		<comments>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/be-a-man/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Evangelical]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelicalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[lds]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mark Driscoll]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormonism]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/?p=1972</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#8217;s a certain philosophy within Evangelicalism that the way to promote church growth is to have a laser beam focus on attracting men.  The frame of mind says men want to be manly and too much of the church has &#8230; <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/be-a-man/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1972&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span style="text-align:center; display: block;"><a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/be-a-man/"><img src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/QWa-aqqHPPs/2.jpg" alt="" /></a></span>
<p><a href="http://ow.ly/8vtRW"><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-1977" title="mans-vow" src="http://ldstalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/mans-vow3.png?w=584" alt=""   /></a>There&#8217;s a certain philosophy within Evangelicalism that the way to promote church growth is to have a laser beam focus on attracting men.  The frame of mind says men want to be manly and too much of the church has become feminized.  Too much worship promotes Jesus as some sort of cosmic boyfriend and what men want is not the be loved and encouraged but instead they want to lead and be challenged.</p>
<p>To capitalize on this some churches focus heavily on men in programs, sermons and worship selection.  It&#8217;s believed that by attracting men, women will be happy to be in a church where their husbands are involved and won&#8217;t complain that resources and attention aren&#8217;t devoted to them. It&#8217;s also believed that churches and women within churches have no problem starting up programs that meet the needs of women, so it&#8217;s not something that needs to be emphasized.  Some of these churches are patriarchal in nature but not necessarily so (as opposed to complementarian).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s my personal opinion that this philosophy is unBiblical. While I can understand the appeal and can even see how it may be working in some sectors I think it violates Paul&#8217;s mandate that we see neither male nor female when it concerns the gospel.  I don&#8217;t think church&#8217;s should be feminized but I don&#8217;t think they should be masculinized either. I certainly see goodness in calling men to lead and to do all of the things mentioned in the video and photo. But there is no need to marginalize women in order to do so.</p>
<p>Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church might be a poster boy for this philosophy if there ever were one. Driscoll brings a lot of bravado and confidence to his preaching. Unfortunately for Driscoll his posture brings controversy.</p>
<p>A recent interview in England concerning women in leadership is bring a lot of criticism towards Driscoll. You can <a href="http://cognitivediscopants.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/driscoll-brierley-on-women-in-leadership/" target="_blank">read about it hear</a>. If you&#8217;d like to hear the interview itself it can be <a href="http://media.premier.org.uk/unbelievable/a2f28d73-4770-4e0b-b255-7ac5ef1ec0e0.mp3" target="_blank">found here</a>. Since the controversy centers around this interview I highly recommend that you listen to the full interview.</p>
<span style='text-align:left;display:block;'><p><object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' data='http://s0.wp.com/wp-content/plugins/audio-player/player.swf' width='290' height='24' id='audioplayer1'><param name='movie' value='http://s0.wp.com/wp-content/plugins/audio-player/player.swf' /><param name='FlashVars' value='&amp;bg=0xf8f8f8&amp;leftbg=0xeeeeee&amp;lefticon=0x666666&amp;rightbg=0xcccccc&amp;rightbghover=0x999999&amp;righticon=0x666666&amp;righticonhover=0xffffff&amp;text=0x666666&amp;slider=0x666666&amp;track=0xFFFFFF&amp;border=0x666666&amp;loader=0x9FFFB8&amp;soundFile=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.premier.org.uk%2Funbelievable%2Fa2f28d73-4770-4e0b-b255-7ac5ef1ec0e0.mp3' /><param name='quality' value='high' /><param name='menu' value='false' /><param name='bgcolor' value='#FFFFFF' /><param name='wmode' value='opaque' /></object></p></span>
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			<media:title type="html">mans-vow</media:title>
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		<title>Obery Hendricks on Mitt Romney &amp; Mormon Racism</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/obery-hendricks-on-mitt-romney-mormon-racism/</link>
		<comments>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/obery-hendricks-on-mitt-romney-mormon-racism/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Book of Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelical]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelicalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Huntsman]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[lds]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mitt Romney]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon history]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[politics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Priesthood]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/?p=1961</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yesterday Obery Hendricks posted an article on the Huffington Post challenging Mitt Romney on racist sentiments found in the Book of Mormon.  As has been pointed out, Hendricks is guilty of cherry-picking some of those statements.  He also doesn&#8217;t have &#8230; <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/obery-hendricks-on-mitt-romney-mormon-racism/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1961&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span style="text-align:center; display: block;"><a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/obery-hendricks-on-mitt-romney-mormon-racism/"><img src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/-JpaCcTqGsc/2.jpg" alt="" /></a></span>
<p>Yesterday Obery Hendricks posted an <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/obery-m-hendricks-jr-phd/mitt-romney-curse-blackness_b_1200470.html" target="_blank">article on the Huffington Post</a> challenging Mitt Romney on racist sentiments found in the Book of Mormon.  As has<a href="http://loadstonerock.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/1774/" target="_blank"> been pointed out</a>, Hendricks is guilty of <a href="http://loadstonerock.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/1774/" target="_blank">cherry-picking</a> some of those statements.  He also doesn&#8217;t have a good enough handle on Mormonism to understand that the Book of Mormon is not making reference to people of African descent, rather it&#8217;s speaking of dark-skinned people of Jewish descent living in a yet-to-be-determined location (some might say they are dark-skinned Native Americans, others might say these passages have nothing to do with skin color at all).</p>
<p>Last night Hendricks appeared as a guest of Ed Schultz on MSNBC.  <a href="http://youtu.be/9kd0N_4xM-o" target="_blank">As I predicted</a>, I believe this is just the start of these attacks on Mitt Romney and Mormonism.  The challenge Romney faces is answering these charges in the length of a sound-bite.  I don&#8217;t think the nuance that Mormons engage the priesthood bad with is going to communicate.  I also don&#8217;t think he has the opportunity to engage in exegis of the Book of Mormon. Hendricks does not offer an attack that effectively sways Mormons, but he does offer an attack that sways non-Mormons.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe this is going to go away and I&#8217;ll be interested to see how Romney resolves it.  I believe he&#8217;ll eventually be forced to say, <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/huntsman-on-mormon-priesthood-ban" target="_blank">as John Huntsman has stated</a>, that the priesthood ban was wrong.</p>
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		<slash:comments>28</slash:comments>
	
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		<title>Jesus Not Religion</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/jesus-not-religion/</link>
		<comments>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/jesus-not-religion/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2012 19:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelical]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Evangelicalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jesus]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[lds]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormonism]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/?p=1958</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This video is quickly filling up my Facebook newsfeed from other Evangelicals.  I can&#8217;t decide if I like it or hate it.  It&#8217;s definitely one or the other, but nothing in between. About 15 years ago it became clever for &#8230; <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/jesus-not-religion/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1958&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span style="text-align:center; display: block;"><a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/jesus-not-religion/"><img src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/1IAhDGYlpqY/2.jpg" alt="" /></a></span>
<p>This video is quickly filling up my Facebook newsfeed from other Evangelicals.  I can&#8217;t decide if I like it or hate it.  It&#8217;s definitely one or the other, but nothing in between.</p>
<p>About 15 years ago it became clever for Evangelicals to say &#8220;I&#8217;m not in a religion, I&#8217;m in a relationship&#8221;.  I agree with the sentiment but the cute factor has worn off. In response to the video, one fellow Evangelical stated &#8220;I hate religion, but I love how righteously awesome I am! To all you haters out there who are about to tell me that I am arrogant, you&#8217;d be smart to remove the log in your eye before you start practicing your &#8220;religion&#8221; in my general direction.&#8221;</p>
<p>Regardless, I think the video is worth watching and I think there are valuable things to take away from it.</p>
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		<title>Top 10 Anti-Mormon Comments of 2011?</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/top-10-anti-mormon-comments-of-2011/</link>
		<comments>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/top-10-anti-mormon-comments-of-2011/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Jared C</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[anti-Mormonism]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[I spotted this article in the Deseret news which referenced Mormonvoices.org&#8217;s article naming 2011&#8242;s &#8220;Top&#8221; Anti-Mormon statements.   I will quote the entire list and explanation here because the original does not allow for comments. 1. “By any standard, Mormonism &#8230; <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/top-10-anti-mormon-comments-of-2011/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1952&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://ldstalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/a-quote-by-comedian-bill-maher-was-the-most.jpg"><img class="alignright size-medium wp-image-1956" title="the biggest Anti-Mormon of 2011" src="http://ldstalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/a-quote-by-comedian-bill-maher-was-the-most.jpg?w=240&#038;h=300" alt="" width="240" height="300" /></a>I spotted <a href="http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700213557/Group-lists-Top-Ten-Anti-Mormon-Statements-of-2011.html">this article</a> in the Deseret news which referenced <a href="http://mormonvoices.org/734/top-ten-2011">Mormonvoices.org&#8217;s article</a> naming 2011&#8242;s &#8220;Top&#8221; Anti-Mormon statements.   I will quote the entire list and explanation here because the original does not allow for comments.</p>
<p><em>1. “By any standard, Mormonism is more ridiculous than any other religion.” Bill Maher, October 15, 2011, George Washington University, as reported by Maureen Dowd in The New York Times, October 18, 2011.</em></p>
<p><em>2. “[Mormonism is] one of the most egregious groups operating on American soil.” Christopher Hitchens, Slate, October 17, 2011.</em></p>
<p><em>3. “The theology comes across as totally barmy. We can become gods with our own planets! And the practices strike me as creepy. No coffee and tea is bad enough. But the underwear!” Michael Ruse, Chronicle of Higher Education, November 30, 2011.</em></p>
<p><em>4. “The current head of the Mormon Church, Thomas S. Monson, known to his followers as ‘prophet, seer and revelator,’ is indistinguishable from the secular plutocratic oligarchs who exercise power in our supposed democracy…” Harold Bloom, The New York Times, November 12, 2011.</em></p>
<p><em>5. “That is a mainstream view, that Mormonism is a cult…Every true, born again follower of Christ ought to embrace a Christian over a non-Christian.” Robert Jeffress, Values Voter Summit, October 7, 2011.</em></p>
<p><em>6. “I believe a candidate who either by intent or effect promotes a false and dangerous religion is unfit to serve. Mitt Romney has said it is not his intent to promote Mormonism. Yet there can be little doubt that the effect of his candidacy—whether or not this is his intent—will be to promote Mormonism.” Warren Cole Smith, <a title="http://Patheos.com" href="http://patheos.com/" target="_blank">Patheos.com</a>, May 24, 2011.</em></p>
<p><em>7. “Yes, it is my opinion that an indoctrinated Mormon should never be elected as President of the United States of America.” Tricia Erickson, <a title="http://CNN.com" href="http://cnn.com/" target="_blank">CNN.com</a>, July 7, 2011.</em></p>
<p><em>8. “Mormonism is not an orthodox Christian faith. It just is not…it’s very clear that the founding fathers did not intend to preserve automatically religious liberty for non-Christian faiths.” Bryan Fischer, Focal Point radio show, September 2011.</em></p>
<p><em>9. “Can you name the candidate that’s running for president that believes that if he’s a good person in his religion he will receive his own planet?…Would you vote for someone for president who believes in their religion, if he’s a good person, he’ll get his own planet?…Do you want to get your own planet?” Ben Ferguson, Fox 13 News, Memphis TN, July 6, 2011.</em></p>
<p><em>10. “The Christian coalition, I think [another candidate] could get a lot of money from that, because Romney, obviously, not being a Christian…” Ainsley Earhart, Fox and Friends, July 17, 2011.</em></p>
<p>Mormonvoices explains:</p>
<blockquote><p><span id="more-1952"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-style:normal;"><br />
</span></p>
<p>Explanation and references for the items above:</p>
<p>1. <a href="http://mormonscholarstestify.org/">332 scholars disagree</a>.</p>
<p>2. This obvious hyperbole slanders 6 million American and 14 million worldwide Mormons.</p>
<p>3. Mormons believe in <a href="http://mormonvoices.org/776/planets">theosis</a>, not in becoming <a href="http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Deification_of_man/Gods_of_their_own_planets">“gods of their own planets</a>.” Mormons who have been through the temple do wear <a href="http://mormonvoices.org/66/magic-underwear">sacred garments</a> as a reminder of the covenants that they make with God.</p>
<p>4. <a href="http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_finances/No_paid_ministry">Only a few Mormon leaders who serve full-time</a> receive <a href="http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_finances/No_paid_ministry/General_Authorities_living_stipend">modest stipends</a>; all other Mormon clergy are unpaid.</p>
<p>5. <a href="http://mormonvoices.org/422/cult-a-classic-false-claim">Mormonism is not</a> a <a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/12/newt_gingrich_s_aid_quit_after_calling_mormonism_a_cult_is_it_.html">cult</a>.</p>
<p>6. Calling Mormonism “dangerous” and Mormons “unfit to serve” is plainly false and bigoted. Responsible journalists have <a href="http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/12/26/2011-the-year-mormonism-went-mainstream/">recognized</a> that Mormons are <a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/12/newt_gingrich_s_aid_quit_after_calling_mormonism_a_cult_is_it_.html">thoroughly mainstream</a> in their modes of living and ideas.</p>
<p>7. <a href="http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=9&amp;num=2&amp;id=263">Mormons are no more “indoctrinated”</a> than any adherent of any other mainstream system of belief.</p>
<p>8. Again, <a href="http://mormonvoices.org/13/non-christian">Mormons are Christian</a>. The dangerous fallacy of Mr. Fischer’s legal argument speaks for itself.</p>
<p>9. Mormons believe in <a href="http://mormonvoices.org/776/planets">theosis, not the gods-of-planets fiction as discussed by Mr. Ferguson</a>.</p>
<p>10. Again, <a href="http://mormonvoices.org/13/non-christian">Mormons are Christian</a>.</p></blockquote>
<p>Does anyone take issue with this list?</p>
<p>As far as Anti-Mormon statements go- I am not too worried about the statements by 1. Maher (bad comedy, not threatening) , 3. Michael Ruse (See Maher), 4. Bloom (an insightful academic view) , 7.Trickson&#8217;s, 8. Fischer&#8217;s (His legal argument is preposterous but his reasoning on Mormons is fine) or 10. Earhart&#8217;s.   They don&#8217;t seem to really misrepresent the Church or spread unfounded fear or prejudice.</p>
<p>Overall, if these are the top 10 I think Mormons are doing pretty well in the PR battle.</p>
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			<media:title type="html">Jared C.</media:title>
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			<media:title type="html">the biggest Anti-Mormon of 2011</media:title>
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		<title>Mormon Stories with Jana Riess</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/mormon-stories-with-jana-riess/</link>
		<comments>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/mormon-stories-with-jana-riess/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Christianity]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[John Dehlin recently conducted an interview with Jana Riess, author of &#8220;Flunking Sainthood.&#8221; Jana was a convert to Mormonism from Evangelicalism.  I think she has many things to say that will make both Evangelicals and Mormons uncomfortable.  But at its &#8230; <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/mormon-stories-with-jana-riess/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1946&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Flunking-Sainthood-Breaking-Forgetting-Neighbor/dp/1557256608/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1323992436&amp;sr=1-1"><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-1949" title="FlunkingSainthood" src="http://ldstalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/flunkingsainthood1.jpg?w=584" alt=""   /></a>John Dehlin recently conducted <a href="http://mormonstories.org/?p=2284" target="_blank">an interview</a> with Jana Riess, author of &#8220;Flunking Sainthood.&#8221;</p>
<p>Jana was a convert to Mormonism from Evangelicalism.  I think she has many things to say that will make both Evangelicals and Mormons uncomfortable.  But at its core, her message is that we should be living out our faith with grace and patience for ourselves and each other.  I sincerely hope that&#8217;s a message we can all get behind.</p>
<p><a href="http://mormonstories.org/?p=2284" target="_blank">http://mormonstories.org/?p=2284</a></p>
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		<title>Why Was Jesus Baptized?</title>
		<link>http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/07/why-was-jesus-baptized/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[baptism]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[I knew a pastor who years ago received his ordination from one of Southern California&#8217;s first mega-churches.  The head pastor was known for being a strong Bible-first expositional preacher.  His knowledge of the Bible was notorious and intimidating.  As part &#8230; <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2012/01/07/why-was-jesus-baptized/">Continue reading <span class="meta-nav">&#8594;</span></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=ldstalk.wordpress.com&amp;blog=641583&amp;post=1938&amp;subd=ldstalk&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I knew a pastor who years ago received his ordination from one of Southern California&#8217;s first mega-churches.  The head pastor was known for being a strong Bible-first expositional preacher.  His knowledge of the Bible was notorious and intimidating.  As part of the ordination process, my friend had to submit himself to something similar to an oral exam in front of a panel of other pastors who quizzed him on his theology and knowledge of the Bible.</p>
<p>The head pastor always posed something of a trick question to those he faced; &#8220;If Jesus was sinless, why did he submit himself to a baptism of repentance at the hands of John the Baptist?&#8221;</p>
<p>Matthew 3:11-15 (ESV) says:</p>
<blockquote><p>I baptize you with water for repentance but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”<br />
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ve kept this question with me since hearing the story.  In conversations with Mormons it&#8217;s often suggested that Jesus was baptized to set an example for what we must do.  I don&#8217;t disagree with this.  I think followers of Jesus should follow Jesus&#8217; example and be baptized.  But I think I&#8217;d like to put a caveat on that.</p>
<p>John was baptizing Jesus with a baptism of repentance.  Repentance is clearly an important and fundamental step in trusting Jesus. To be saved by Jesus a person has to be saved from something.  Recognizing one&#8217;s sin and turning away from it (and toward Jesus) must happen.</p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t believe Jesus, as a sinless person, needed to repent.  Jesus was indeed baptized by John but not for repentance.</p>
<p>Matthew 3 continues:</p>
<blockquote><p>And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him,and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;  and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”</p></blockquote>
<p>I think John was absolutely correct in objecting that he wasn&#8217;t qualified to baptize Jesus.  Jesus had him proceed because it didn&#8217;t matter who baptized him.  Jesus&#8217; baptism was a confession of his devotion to God, and God&#8217;s confession of his devotion to Jesus. The only two participants of concern were Jesus and God. The righteousness that was fulfilled was not the absolution of sin in Jesus&#8217; life but rather the confessions of Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit.</p>
<p>As Christians, we follow Jesus&#8217; example in baptism.  But we do not follow Jesus in a baptism of repentance.  We do not carry on the baptism of John the Baptist.  We carry on the baptism of Jesus, a baptism of identification and commitment. Just as John was an insignificant and unqualified baptizer, it doesn&#8217;t matter by whose authority we are baptized.  What matters is how and why we stand before God in our baptism.</p>
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