(If you are new to this blog, please see this disclaimer about this post.)
Recently, commentator Aaron (no, not that Aaron) dropped by and posted a list of questions that he would like Mormons to answer. It has also come to my attention whilst Googling for the counter-cult site from which Aaron plagiarized copied-and-pasted the questions that you cultists won’t listen if I try to preach to you, so I should bait you with questions instead and make you think I’m interested in joining your religion.
So, let’s see all you smarty-pants Mormons try and answer these . . .
1. Are spirit children angels?
2. How did spirit children become people?
3. If we were all spirit children, then why don’t I remember being one?
4. Why wasn’t Jesus the first person on Earth as he was the first spirit child?
5. Who was Jesus’s Spirit mother?
6. Who was Lucifer’s mother?
7. If Jesus and Lucifer were spirit children like the rest of us were, then why do they have more power than the rest of us?
8. Why did God and the spirit children discuss a plan of salvation before sin was brought into this world?
9. If Lucifer was a spirit child, then who was he when he was born into human form, and if he was or will be in human form, then will he progress to godhood, because after all, Lucifer wanted people to be saved?
10. If Lucifer wanted people to get saved, then why is he evil?
11. If there is no Hell, then where will Lucifer end up, in a heaven?
12. Would you trust Lucifer’s brother?
13. Why do spirit children grow to adults in heaven before the moment of conception into a human being?
14. Why did God have to have sex with Mary if Jesus was already a spirit child; and why did she birth Jesus and not Satan or somebody else?
15. Why did Joseph marry Mary after she had sex with somebody else?
16. Does God still worship his god?
17. What is the last level of Heaven like; if it’s not so bad then why should we strive to reach the upper levels of Heaven?
18. Non-Mormons shouldn’t be fearful of not becoming saved because we got nothing to be saved from if we are only going to go to the last level of Heaven, because you (like Jehovah’s Witnesses) believe that there is no Hell or eternal torture; plus Mormons believe that you can get a second chance after death, so why should any Mormon keep his own religion instead of having fun all the time?
19. When the world ends and everything is done, will God still need spirit children? Spirit children won’t be born on Earth after the end, and won’t “climb” to godhood because they don’t have a physical body, and you have to a physical body to become a god.
20. If God is a physical being, then why do his wives give birth to spiritual children?
21. How many heavens are there since you believe that there are three heavens, but God has ancestors who all live in their own heavens?
22. Why do dark-skinned people stay dark-skinned when they become a Mormon?
23. If God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones, why does Alma 18:26-28 and John 4:24 say that God is a spirit?
24. If the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth, as Joseph Smith said, why does it contain over 4,000 changes from the original 1830 edition?
25. If the Book of Mormon contains the “fullness of the everlasting gospel”, why does the LDS Church need additional works?
26. Why do you baptize for the dead when both Mosiah 3:25 and the Bible state that there is no chance of salvation after death?
27. Why does Doctrines and Covenants 42:18 say that there is no forgiveness for a murderer when 3 Nephi 30:2 says there is forgiveness for him?
———————
DISCLAIMER: This post is purely for fun because things have been slow around here. I do not think Mormons are “cultists” and I think almost all of these questions are silly and not to be taken seriously. Plus Kullervo put me up to it. That is all.
Now have some fun answering!
LDS & Evangelical Conversations 
Is he saying that Mary was a licked cupcake?
so you’re looking for the “official” answer or what each individual Mormon who would respond thinks? Let me have a go at them…
1. Are spirit children angels?
A: To the best of my understanding of what is revealed about the pre-mortal life, the “growth” of a spirit is not the same as the growth of a mortal being, thus, it is most likely that spirits never took the form of “children” as we envision them.
2. How did spirit children become people?
A: See #1. Of course, by “people” I’m assuming the questioner is interested in how spirits become mortal people. The word “people” only has implication in the mortal world. For that, I refer to the birds and the bees instruction manual.
3. If we were all spirit children, then why don’t I remember being one?
A: See #1 re: spirit children. As for remembrance, I direct you to this quote from Ezra Taft Benson:
“Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father and how familiar his face is to us.”
Remember, in this world, the overriding entity is the physical body, which, having been created IN this world, has no remembrance of God’s presence, having never existed in God’s presence yet. How exactly is the physical body supposed to store memory of something it has never experienced? When a human being is born in this world, he or she comes into something completely new, never experienced before. I don’t know why it couldn’t have been done differently. Logically there are probably different ways this could have been done. But in life, hypotheticals don’t matter much. This IS the way it was created.
4. Why wasn’t Jesus the first person on Earth as he was the first spirit child?
A: Better question is, why wasn’t Jesus the LAST person on Earth? Surely that better fits the whole “first to be last, and last to be first” stuff, right? Besides which, wouldn’t it be odd if the Savior of the world were to sacrifice his life BEFORE anyone were to have committed any sin? It’s hard enough to swallow that He only shows up halfway through it all.
5. Who was Jesus’s Spirit mother?
A: I’m gonna go with God’s Wife, personally.
6. Who was Lucifer’s mother?
A: I’m gonna go with God’s Wife, personally.
7. If Jesus and Lucifer were spirit children like the rest of us were, then why do they have more power than the rest of us?
A: Um, well, I’m honestly not sure exactly what power Lucifer has. You know, that whole “he only has power that you give him” deal… And Jesus, well, His power seems to come from the fact that He lived a sinless life, always obeyed His Father, who then entrusted him with powers each one of us could conceivably have if we were less sinners than we are. The better question is: why and how was Jesus sinless? Seriously, how the hell…er….uh… heck did He do it? Power is only given to someone based on their willing desire to obey God, not because they’re extra special or extra evil. However, it should be noted, in terms of God’s powers, that each and every single human being has one of God’s greatest powers entrusted to them, to use or abuse as they see fit: the power to procreate. We create life, and that is a power of God. On this front, ironically, most everyone else has more power than Jesus had, because as far as the scriptures note, He did not have children. This is not to say that He wasn’t married, because as is tradition in Jewish culture, a Rabbi was a married man. There is no indication that He had children.
8. Why did God and the spirit children discuss a plan of salvation before sin was brought into this world?
A: Probably because our understanding of time and space is ultra-limited compared to the vantage point from Kolob. 🙂
With that, I’m going to move to a new comment…
9. If Lucifer was a spirit child, then who was he when he was born into human form, and if he was or will be in human form, then will he progress to godhood, because after all, Lucifer wanted people to be saved?
A: Really? This one is a piece of cake. Lucifer was denied the right of receiving a physical body. He, thusly, only has a spirit, and will forever lack the physical body. He, thusly, will never attain his goal of becoming a god himself.
10. If Lucifer wanted people to get saved, then why is he evil?
A: Because he would have taken agency away from God’s children. At least, that is according to what is written in scripture. As per my answer in #3, I have no memory of the actual event, thus I cannot go into more detail than that.
11. If there is no Hell, then where will Lucifer end up, in a heaven?
A: Really? Outer darkness anyone?
12. Would you trust Lucifer’s brother?
A: Yep. Guilt by association is amateurish.
13. Why do spirit children grow to adults in heaven before the moment of conception into a human being?
A: See #1.
14. Why did God have to have sex with Mary if Jesus was already a spirit child; and why did she birth Jesus and not Satan or somebody else?
A: This one is probably above my pay grade, but here goes. God is a physical being. The creation of a mortal, physical, human being requires two physical beings: a male and a female. The female provides the female sexual parts, and the Male provides the male sexual parts, or more crudely, she provides the egg, and He provides the sperm. There’s just no way getting around it. Now, maybe they had some heavenly artificial insemination going on so as to not have actual physical sex, but again, that’s above my pay grade. As to the second part, that’s a perfectly good question. It seems to indicate that God has some control as to which spirits go into which bodies.
15. Why did Joseph marry Mary after she had sex with somebody else?
A: Dude, this one is answered in the scriptures!
16. Does God still worship his god?
A: This one needs more context. Where does this questioner get this notion that God worships some other god? I’m not questioning the veracity of the questioner, just simply curious for clarity’s sake. 🙂
17. What is the last level of Heaven like; if it’s not so bad then why should we strive to reach the upper levels of Heaven?
A: Dude, Outer Darkness. Sounds pretty bad to me.
I’ll finish the rest in another comment.
Dan, apparently you never did one of these thingies in elementary school.
18. Non-Mormons shouldn’t be fearful of not becoming saved because we got nothing to be saved from if we are only going to go to the last level of Heaven, because you (like Jehovah’s Witnesses) believe that there is no Hell or eternal torture; plus Mormons believe that you can get a second chance after death, so why should any Mormon keep his own religion instead of having fun all the time?
A: In other words, having your cake and eating it too? Dunno. Sounds like you certainly could just go get drunk, rape some woman, and in the end not be too bad…a thousand years later, or something. I think the whole point of living the kind of life espoused by Mormon prophets is that overall the lifestyle that provides the most long term, progressive happiness does not include doing bad things. This is vague for a reason, and while some have abused the lifestyle to demand utter rigidity (no dancing, head coverings…), I’m currently listening to The Used, Limp Bizkit, and so on and am still a temple worthy member living a pretty decent life.
19. When the world ends and everything is done, will God still need spirit children? Spirit children won’t be born on Earth after the end, and won’t “climb” to godhood because they don’t have a physical body, and you have to a physical body to become a god.
A: You think this is the only world God created that inhabits human kind of life? Sheesh, read up your scriptures!
Moses 1:33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
20. If God is a physical being, then why do his wives give birth to spiritual children?
A: See #1 re: spirit children. Secondly, who is implying plural wives? I’m going with only one unless otherwise indicated. As for the meat of the comment, I have absolutely no idea.
21. How many heavens are there since you believe that there are three heavens, but God has ancestors who all live in their own heavens?
A: Are they separate heavens, or are we not going to all meet up at the same grade level? That’s my impression.
22. Why do dark-skinned people stay dark-skinned when they become a Mormon?
A: Oh I could be crude here…but I won’t, because I think this is the, uh, darkest episode of this church’s history. Dark skinned people stay dark skinned because God is dark skinned. We’re closer to God when we get sunburned. 😉
23. If God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones, why does Alma 18:26-28 and John 4:24 say that God is a spirit?
A: Do those two scriptures say “God is a Spirit and he does not have a body of flesh and bones?” Okay, so if they don’t say that, why do you ASSUME that those two scriptures say otherwise? You know what you get out of the word assume….God IS a Spirit, and He ALSO has a body of flesh and bones.
24. If the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth, as Joseph Smith said, why does it contain over 4,000 changes from the original 1830 edition?
A: At 4000 changes, I think it still has less changes than any other book in the history of the earth. I mean, think about the Bible, for example. How many changes have we seen? The fact that there is a KJV and an NRSV, and so on indicates lots and lots and lots of changes.
25. If the Book of Mormon contains the “fullness of the everlasting gospel”, why does the LDS Church need additional works?
A: Because while it has the Gospel, it doesn’t have an account of the life of Jesus. That’s kinda an important thing…
26. Why do you baptize for the dead when both Mosiah 3:25 and the Bible state that there is no chance of salvation after death?
A: Uh, where does it say that in the Bible? And Mosiah 3:25…nice taking out of context….this is why we have the D&C. See D&C 19.
27. Why does Doctrines and Covenants 42:18 say that there is no forgiveness for a murderer when 3 Nephi 30:2 says there is forgiveness for him?
A: Let’s be clear about what we’re talking about here. Here is D&C 42:18
“18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.”
And here is 3 Nephi 30:2
“2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel”
Anyone recognize where the difference rests? In D&C the Lord is “speaking unto the church.” In 3 Nephi, the Lord is speaking to “all ye Gentiles.” In other words, the Lord does indeed have a different standard for those who have accepted Him and those who have yet to accept him. In other words, if you are an endowed member of the church and you murder someone (we don’t need to get into a definition war over what murder is in this case), you have no forgiveness in this world, or the world to come, because it is a part of the covenant you make with God that you accept an understanding of the value of the life of a human being and of existing in this world. If you murder someone after receiving this light, this testimony from the Lord, you cannot be forgiven for your sin against the Holy Ghost. One who has not yet received this light, cannot be held accountable for committing murder at the same level as one who has. Murder being what it is, it is still not easy to obtain forgiveness in this world or the next. But there are people who had previously committed murder who had, later in life, joined the church. As the 3 Nephi scripture notes, this is possible. But there is no example of a Mormon who, after he or she murders someone, rejoining the church.
I have to say this last question was my favorite, because it actually was substantive and doctrinal. I had more fun with the others, but in terms of stimulating my mind, this was the best question. Got anymore?
Mephibosheth,
I actually got the amusing nature of the post, but I actually felt like going through the questions. Just caught me at the right time, I guess.
I wouldn’t imagine anybody bothering to answer these questions. The problem with this laundry list is that they are all over the map theologically, are not directed at understanding either the source or the ramifications of the underlying theology, and don’t present a positive message to convince anybody of your views.
If you want to understand LDS theology on creation/preexistence aren’t there better ways to ask about it than to obsess about Lucifer’s genealogy? If you want explain the perceived errors with preexistence theology shouldn’t you present a positive message not just a list of pointless questions?
I’m not trying to preach to the choir but I have seen this trend in recent debates theology inside of my own faith. I may totally disagree with another persons theological views but shouldn’t I be willing to examine the authoritative source for their views? If I want to engage them shouldn’t I be willing to examine the ultimate result of a particular belief on the over all system?
Finally what is the expected or intended result of asking these types of question in an on going litany? Rapid fire questions only invites rapid fire answers or a volley of returned pointless questions without ever coming to either understand another persons views or having to opportunity to share your message.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDdN_b6TjYo
6. Who was Lucifer’s mother?
-Fran Drescher
Priceless.
I would like to take a shot at these questions myself (that’s why I made Jack post them), from a Mormon perspective as I understand it.
1. Yes. I don’t know why it took Dan so many words to answer it and he never got around to the actual answer. although he is right: there’s nothing to indicate that “spirit children” means “children,” as in “little kids.” “Spirit children” describes our relationship with Heavenly Father, not our status in eternal development. I’m 31, married, with two kids–I’m not a child, but I am still one of my parents’ children.
2. The exact process of how a spirit comes to inhabit a mortal body is not explained in Mormonism, and not really theologically important. But spirit children become “people” when their physical bodies are created and they inhabit them.
3. Dan’s answer is again way too complicated. Our spirits passed through a veil of forgetfulness in the process of being born as mortals. Again, how that works technically is unimportant, because however it happened, the end result is that Heavenly Father intentionally caused or allowed us to forget everything that happened before birth. That’s basic Mormon primary kid stuff.
4. Why should he have been? There is no indication that order of spirit birth has anythign to do with order of mortal birth. In any case, many of us, including specifically Jesus Christ, had roles to play in mortality that were foreordained in the premortal existence. Order and location of birth in mortality had more to do with our foreordained role in mortality, not the order or our spirit birth.
5. Heavenly Mother. Or one of Heavenly Father’s several heavenly wives, if he had more than one. Same as all of us.
6. Heavenly Mother. Or one of Heavenly Father’s several heavenly wives, if he had more than one. Same as all of us.
7. Why should they have the same amount of power as the rest of us? We’re not clones, or assembly-line products.
8. Bringing sin into the world was part of the plan. By thinking of it as “the plan of salvation,” you are misunderstanding it. It was not a plan to save us from sin; it was a plan to get us our exaltation.
9. Lucifer rebelled and lost his first estate. He and the third of the host of heaven that followed him will not be born into mortal bodies and therefore can not have exaltation.
10. The two are not mutually exclusive. “Wanting people to get saved” is not what makes him evil. His methods made him evil. Or in any case, his anger at having his plan rejected led him to become evil.
11. No, he will end up in outer darkness. Mormons believe that there are many degrees of glory, but there is also a condition of “no degree of glory.” It’s where the wailing and gnashing of teeth are. If you want to call it hell, I guess that’s pretty close, but confusing, since Mormons also believe in a state of spirit prison betweend eath and the resurrection that could also be called “hell.” Again, this is super-basic Mormon theology.
12. False premise. The fact that they are related is irrelevant, especially since we don’t know of anyone who isn’t related to them. Put another way, would you trust Satan’s creator?
13. Who says they do? That’s ridiculous. See my answer to question #1. “Spirit children” doesn’t mean “little kids made of spirit.”
14. Even if God had sex with Mary, which most Mormons do not believe, Jesus would need a physical body to be born, the same as all of us. For exaltation we need a spirit body and a perfected physical body. All of us (at least all of us who get born into the physical world) had a spirit body first, and then a physical body created by sperm + egg. For the second half of the question, God has the power to direct what spirits are born where, when, and to whom. Part of the whole “foreordination” thing. God is still a god, after all.
15. This question is asinine. Even if Mary did have sex with Heavenly Father (again, most Mormons don’t believe that is the case, regardless of what Brigham Young said), she could still get married afterward. Either Joseph knew about it and decided he was okay with it and he married her, or he didn’t know about it and he married her. Same reason everyone who married someone who had sex before marriage is willing to marry that person.
16. Who knows what Heavenly Father’s relationship is with his spirit father. No clue. The issue is simply not addressed in Mormonism, and most Mormons would think it irrelevant: it wouldn’t change anything for them regardless of what the answer was.
17. If your goal in life is only to escape eternal torture, then sure, shoot for the Telestial kingdom. Heavenly Father intends for us to have exaltation, not merely to escape eternal torture. Plus, I’m pretty sure if you don’t get your sins all cleaned up by the atonement, you have to suffer for them in spirit prison before you get resurrected anyway. So going to “the last level of heaven” doesn’t get you out of post mortal suffering anyway. And then, when you’re hanigng out in the Telestial kingdom, you’ll spend forever knowing you disappointed God by throwing away your destiny for a party on earth and a “not too bad, but never going to get any better” eternal existence. Plus, no families.
18. This is two questions. The first one is the same as question #17 and it misunderstands the Mormon concept of “salvation.” Mormons aren’t shooting for just salvation; they’re shooting for exaltation because it’s the eternal destiny that Heavenly Father has in store for us. It’s what we were made for. The second question misunderstands the Mormon concept of baptism for the dead. There’s no “second chance after you die.” There’s one fair chance. Only Heavanly Father knows our hearts, but I’m pretty sure that an intentional attitude of “party now, repent later” won’t get you very far in spirit prison. Even if you could, the fact is that you probably won’t.
19. Who knows? Maybe he’ll make another world. Maybe he’ll be done making spirit children.
20. God’s body is physical, but it’s different form ours. Also, don’t forget, he is God. He can pretty much do what he wants.
21. Again, it’s wrong to conceive of them as “heavens.” They’re degrees of glory. There are three basic degrees of glory that we can get in this life. Other people on other worlds? Dunno, and not sure why it would matter. The problem is again that you are forcing a different understanding of “heaven” onto Mormon theology.
The rest of the questions are boring.
Jack, if you hadn’t done it, I would have. Time to get your shotgun out, we’re going to meet the Mormons.
22. Lamanites turning white in the Book of Mormon isn;t necessarily a theological pronouncement that dark-skinned people will always turn white if they repent. The Book of Mormon Lamanites were udner a specific curse that was lifted under specific conditions. On the other hand, this highlights the bigger issue, which is the Church’s problematic and difficult history with race. But that’s a big issue for a full discussion, not a little question with a pat answer. As a zinger, though, it’s basically effective, I think.
23. This is just prooftexting and parsing scriptures against each other, which is not interesting to me. Evangelicals and fundamentalists who think they don;t do that with contradictory parts of the Bible are fooling themselves.
24. This is a boring question, bu I thought Dan’s answer was really stupid. Dan, I promise you that countless books ahve been written that did not require 4000 changes. Right now, the book I am reading is only 154 pages long. It would have needed 26 changes per page to hit 4,000. It’s possible that it did, sure (unlikely, though: Louis L’Amour was notorious for writing the story, making no changes, and sending it off for publication), but it is also moronic to claim that every book ever written had that amount of changes.
25. The question is not whether Mormons need additional scriptures. The question is whether God gave additional scriptures. The premise of the question is wrong: it assumes normatively that a religion should only have the minimal amount of scriptures absolutely necessary for salvation. That’s nonsense.
26. & 27. Again, just parsing scriptures against each other. Zzzz. Especially since the ones Aaron cited rarely say what he says they say.
2. How did spirit children become people?
Well, you see, when a Mommy & a Daddy love each other very much . . .
3. If we were all spirit children, then why don’t I remember being one?
Do you remember being born? If not, then I guess it didn’t happen.
4. Why wasn’t Jesus the first person on Earth as he was the first spirit child?
Didn’t we just establish that you were never born? How are you still asking questions then??
8. Why did God and the spirit children discuss a plan of salvation before sin was brought into this world?
Because the XBox 360 in heaven spawned 3 RRoD and we had to do something else to pass the time.
9. If Lucifer was a spirit child, then who was he when he was born into human form,
Harry Reid.
11. If there is no Hell, then where will Lucifer end up
The U. S. Senate, from the looks of it.
12. Would you trust Lucifer’s brother?
No, but I might trust his father’s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate.
13. Why do spirit children grow to adults in heaven before the moment of conception into a human being?
So we can sing musicals about sticking it together with our earth fam’ while dancing around in flowing fabrics.
14. Why did God have to have sex with Mary if Jesus was already a spirit child; and why did she birth Jesus and not Satan or somebody else?
They have a department in heaven that takes care of these sorts of things. Admittedly, sometimes they mess up and then people like Angelina Jolie come from people like Jon Voight. But in the case of Jesus, it looks like the system was “working as intended.”
15. Why did Joseph marry Mary after she had sex with somebody else?
Dunno, but rest assured, God was a hard act to follow.
18. Non-Mormons shouldn’t be fearful of not becoming saved because we got nothing to be saved from if we are only going to go to the last level of Heaven, because you (like Jehovah’s Witnesses) believe that there is no Hell or eternal torture; plus Mormons believe that you can get a second chance after death, so why should any Mormon keep his own religion instead of having fun all the time?
Actually, apart from the failure to use gender-inclusive language, I rather agree with the point of the second half of this question.
24. If the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth, as Joseph Smith said, why does it contain over 4,000 changes from the original 1830 edition?
Joseph Smith was one of those people who liked to brag about crazy stuff, which was pretty common in the 19th century. Approximately 30% of Mormon apologetic concerns would be rendered completely irrelevant if Mormons would just admit that and let it go.
But Mormons don’t actually believe you get “a second chance after death.”
15. Why did Joseph marry Mary after she had sex with somebody else?
Its a matter of historical fact that Mary was smoking hot. (also the answer to #14.)
18. Non-Mormons shouldn’t be fearful of not becoming saved because we got nothing to be saved from if we are only going to go to the last level of Heaven, because you (like Jehovah’s Witnesses) believe that there is no Hell or eternal torture; plus Mormons believe that you can get a second chance after death, so why should any Mormon keep his own religion instead of having fun all the time?
1. Non-Mormons shouldn’t be fearful of not becoming saved. God likes you too.
2.This question makes the false assumption that being a Mormon is not the same as “having fun all the time”.
25. If the Book of Mormon contains the “fullness of the everlasting gospel”, why does the LDS Church need additional works?
Same reason that Led Zeppelin put out more then 4 albums.
Now we’re talking theology I can relate to. What do you make of the fact that–while excellent–all albums by Led Zeppelin after 4 are clearly and decidedly inferior?
Even HotH.
i think its a very similar story to the fall off in cool new stuff out of the LDS church after the BY era:
Large scale success leading to artistic distraction, riotous partying and to some extant, heroin use.
Definitely.
haahaa Ms Jack! Good answers Kullervo!
1. Are angels spirit children? Yes
3. Knowledge can greatly influence our decisions. In order to be accountable for what we learn and do on earth, we couldn’t be allowed to remember the ‘expanded version’.
12. Would I trust Lucifer’s opposite? Yes.
14. An ‘organic’ sperm and egg equals a baby. I believe that Mary was a literal virgin..and that Jesus was the literal Son of God. No matter how Father went about it, He’s right..no matter how much WE dislike it, it doesn’t make it untrue or impossible. Our reasoning is not God’s reasoning. Obviously a sacred topic and ought to remain so.
18. Number 3ish…goes back to what you knew and how you acted on it. I hope the best for everyone..and I think we’ll be overwhelmed by the mercies extended. All our works WILL be weighed in the end, the most important ones being how we applied Jesus Christ into our lives. The ‘repent now!’ is quite valid for though Christ may not return to the earth before I die, I’ll be returning to Christ after I die..there is very much an urgency to repent, repent!
“24. If the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth, as Joseph Smith said, why does it contain over 4,000 changes from the original 1830 edition?”
Is this a serious concern for anyone? With an average of 50 punctuations a page we’re estimating over 25000 punctuations. A big pool for an easy transcribal error. There are many others and I’d welcome any specific changes that don’t have a reasonable purpose.
But Mormons don’t actually believe you get “a second chance after death.”
Depends on the Mormon, Kullervo.
You have Mormons like shematwater who argue that if you’ve had the LDS gospel preached to you at all, and you don’t accept it, you don’t get a chance after death (and personally, I think this view conforms best to what the church officially teaches).
You have Mormons like Geoff J. at New Cool Thang who argue that the opportunity to progress never goes away.
And then you have people who take a more balanced view, such as psychochemiker and tomchik with The Jack Clause.
Kullervo,
Dude, take a chill pill. My answer was more in jest than anything, just like the question is more in jest than anything. Obviously an eight page book for toddlers is not going to have more than 4000 errors in it. Because of course the question is ridiculous, like most of the questions here. I thought I laced my comments with enough bemusement that you wouldn’t necessarily take all the answers seriously.
I may not have blogged about it, but I am totally in agreement with these guys on the Jack Clause, as well. (Which would make sense, since I hang out with these guys on occasion and discuss our mutually-held beliefs on religion and philosophy and the awesomeness that is Jack.)
Personally, I think we need to revert to the original manuscript edition. Each chapter is one long paragraph with no punctuation. Then we can stop worrying about all the changes that have been made to the various editions from 1830 to 1985 or so. (By the way, what language are folks discussing when they talk about the changes? Just the English? Or do they include the changes in all of the other language editions, as well?)
“You have Mormons like shematwater who argue that if you’ve had the LDS gospel preached to you at all, and you don’t accept it, you don’t get a chance after death (and personally, I think this view conforms best to what the church officially teaches).”
That’s pretty much it. Except, by preaching you mean someone delivers the Word of God with such power that the listener is overwhelmed with the Spirit? And by ‘don’t accept’ you mean after having been opened to truth you knowing reject it? If so, then the statement is true, but only God and the individual can know the details. I would venture that the statement is not true more often than we think. The warning to not procrastinate the day of your repentance is valid. There is an urgency and benefit to choosing to do so while we’re still alive. One can assert truth, which that doctrine is, but only God can apply judgement. I know many who have accepted Truth..who are good..who will recognize their Savior when they see him..but who are limited by circumstances so that they don’t follow the ‘traditional path’ of discipleship.
When are we to say ‘progress is impossible’? Mortals will always be quick to condemn another with the Word of God..as the Jews tried to do with the adulterous woman. But Christ lifted the unredeemable and redeemed her of her sins! To hard line it is to ignore the role of Christ in our lives. He is Mighty to save, and I’ll say again, I think we’ll be surprised at the mercies extended to us, and those we know as ‘wicked’.
That’s it.
Chambana, IL officially attracts the coolest Mormons in the world. (Well, I guess it didn’t attract Paul, Seth, Jared, etc. But it did get Tomchick, Alex and me…).
You mean your smug bemusement? Yeah, not funny. Just [blank]ing irritating. If you’re going to be clever, you need to actually be clever.
Dude, you should just leave the Mormon religion altogether, including hanging out at LDS themed blogs and getting annoyed by Mormons who are smug toward your stupid questions.
This just got extra hilarious.
And I second the theory that the U.S. Senate is a special circle of Hell.
They’re not my questions, dumbass. They’re questions posted by some drive-by commentor on another post that he cribbed from a counter-cult ministry site.
That said,
1) I have left Mormonism altogether. But since my whole extended family is Mormon, Mormonism is pretty much always going to be a part of my life.
2) This blog is not a part of the Mormon religion. Leaving Mormonism does not require me
3) The idea that because I’m out of the Church I should never be interested in talking about the Church again is just [blank]ing ludicrous. Maybe the Church is still interesting to me? Maybe religion in general is interesting to me? Maybe Mormonism is still relevant to me because I was raised a faithful Mormon and thus it is an important part of my personal and family history, regardless of whether I am a member or not?
Where do you get the idea that because someone leaves the church, they should pretend that it doesn;t exist for the rest of their lives is nonsense. When someone moves to the United States from another country and becomes a US citizen, does that mean they should spend the rest of their lives pretending thir home country does not exist? That’s idiotic.
4) I comment here because I’m good friends with most of the regular posters and commenters. I have met a lot of them in real life. They’re my friends. Despite the fact that I am not Mormon or Evangalical, I intend to keep on commenting here for as long as I damn well please.
If they’re not your questions, why do you care about how someone answers them so much? Seriously, you need to relax. This post was supposed to be an amusement. Save your anger for your own blog.
Because stupid is stupid. And your stupid is not even funny or clever. It’s just stupid.
Really? You’re angry over my comment over errors in the Book of Mormon so much that you keep the anger up? Clearly there is something else bothering you. Seeing that I haven’t talked to you or commented on your blog in like over a year or something, it’s not something I’ve said or done. Having a bad day, Kullervo?
oh, and I’m sure it’s gonna get really friendly when your little merry band of ex-Mormons comes in to defend you…or something.
Defend?
I want to see you guys go at each other like rabid howler monkeys. . . much more entertaining.
It seems Rabid Howler Monkeys is already taken.
Um Dan,
Not all of Kullervo’s defenders are ex or anti.
I’m not even one of Kullervo’s friends, but you’re making a real fool of yourself here. None of the faithful Mormons, or no-Mo’s, or ex-Mo’s want anything to do with your brand of conversation or dialogue.
Ok then, how about like starved weasels on meth?
Jared,
Yeah, that’s a pretty good one.
psycho,
my brand of conversation or dialogue? well since [blank] is okay to say here, then hey go [blank] yourself psycho. How’s that for my brand of conversation or dialogue.
YEAH!
. . it’s on.
I think this has run its productive course.
Tim closed this thread, but I wanted to add three things:
– Tim and Jared can decide on their threads, but harsh swear words are not allowed on my threads. Check my posting history. I have always edited them.
– Everyone is welcome to comment here; Tim is the only one who has power to de-invite people from this blog, and I have sometimes reserved the right to de-invite people from my own threads, but I haven’t done that with this post. So Kullervo is welcome to comment here. Dan is welcome to comment here. Please do not suggest that other commentators go somewhere else.
– I realize that things get heated up around here sometimes, and I haven’t always been the best about this myself, but if you think someone’s comments are dumb, can you please try to save overt name-calling as a last resort? We want to promote constructive and friendly dialogue on this blog.
I don’t really know what to say about this post. When I do a “just for fun” post and come back to people swearing at each other and calling each other “fool,” “idiotic,” “stupid,” “dumbass,” etc., I guess things have gone drastically wrong.
I’ve re-opened this thread due to popular request.
Please keep the discussion civil and let’s have fun with the OP.
Don’t make me play mom on this blog, because I hate doing it.
Now proceed.
“…come back to people swearing at each other and calling each other “fool,” “idiotic,” “stupid,” “dumbass,” etc., I guess things have gone drastically wrong.”
Or, you know, Kullervo’s loose again. lol!
1. Are spirit children angels?
When they’re behaving themselves.
2. How did spirit children become people?
When they became “children”, they would have become – by definition – “people.” Although I’m not so sure about some of the kids in our current senior Primary…
3. If we were all spirit children, then why don’t I remember being one?
Rather forgetful of you.
4. Why wasn’t Jesus the first person on Earth as he was the first spirit child?
He was the first person on earth. Here’s the proof:
5. Who was Jesus’s Spirit mother?
6. Who was Lucifer’s mother?
7. If Jesus and Lucifer were spirit children like the rest of us were, then why do they have more power than the rest of us?
Galactic favoritism.
8. Why did God and the spirit children discuss a plan of salvation before sin was brought into this world?
That’s God for you – always planning ahead.
9. If Lucifer was a spirit child, then who was he when he was born into human form, and if he was or will be in human form, then will he progress to godhood, because after all, Lucifer wanted people to be saved?
Last I checked, Lucifer never got a body.
10. If Lucifer wanted people to get saved, then why is he evil?
My sister wanted to force everyone to come to her 10th birthday party too. But I wouldn’t say that made her exactly righteous.
11. If there is no Hell, then where will Lucifer end up, in a heaven?
I pick door #3.
12. Would you trust Lucifer’s brother?
Maybe – if he was wearing a proper suit and tie.
13. Why do spirit children grow to adults in heaven before the moment of conception into a human being?
For practice.
14. Why did God have to have sex with Mary if Jesus was already a spirit child; and why did she birth Jesus and not Satan or somebody else?
Because they have angels in heaven who run paternity and DNA tests to ensure that the right kids end up in the right spots.
In this particular instance, it was Brigham Young’s shift.
He never gets enough credit for his accomplishments.
15. Why did Joseph marry Mary after she had sex with somebody else?
The same reason every Mormon gets married – the promise of virgins in heaven.
Oh, wait…
16. Does God still worship his god?
You’re supposed to capitalize “god” in this instance.
17. What is the last level of Heaven like; if it’s not so bad then why should we strive to reach the upper levels of Heaven?
Never been there, but I’m told they have very rough boss fights, and some wicked puzzle rooms.
Why go?
To complete the game, of course.
18. Non-Mormons shouldn’t be fearful of not becoming saved because we got nothing to be saved from if we are only going to go to the last level of Heaven, because you (like Jehovah’s Witnesses) believe that there is no Hell or eternal torture; plus Mormons believe that you can get a second chance after death, so why should any Mormon keep his own religion instead of having fun all the time?
People who don’t finish video games are pansies.
19. When the world ends and everything is done, will God still need spirit children? Spirit children won’t be born on Earth after the end, and won’t “climb” to godhood because they don’t have a physical body, and you have to a physical body to become a god.
I’m sure he can start over with another planet if he’s in the mood.
20. If God is a physical being, then why do his wives give birth to spiritual children?
It’s easier than giving birth to the other kind.
We take good care of our women here in Mormonism.
21. How many heavens are there since you believe that there are three heavens, but God has ancestors who all live in their own heavens?
Will you just finish the stupid game already?
22. Why do dark-skinned people stay dark-skinned when they become a Mormon?
Personal preference in most cases, I think. Anyone who wants a skin color change has to get Quorum of the Twelve approval first. I think L. Tom Perry heads the committee in this case.
23. If God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones, why does Alma 18:26-28 and John 4:24 say that God is a spirit?
Well, he has one of those too.
24. If the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth, as Joseph Smith said, why does it contain over 4,000 changes from the original 1830 edition?
As a Mormon, I firmly believe you can always improve on perfection.
25. If the Book of Mormon contains the “fullness of the everlasting gospel”, why does the LDS Church need additional works?
Oh, those are just the installation manuals for different languages.
And Linux.
26. Why do you baptize for the dead when both Mosiah 3:25 and the Bible state that there is no chance of salvation after death?
We’re optimistic that God will reconsider. Like he did with Moses in agreeing to not zap the Children of Israel.
27. Why does Doctrines and Covenants 42:18 say that there is no forgiveness for a murderer when 3 Nephi 30:2 says there is forgiveness for him?
Some people really like Raspberry Sherbet, but other people just won’t settle for anything but Vanilla Cookie Dough.
Wouldn’t you rather have options?
I sure would.
@ Seth – LMAO.
10/10, Seth
For any Mormons who doubt the veracity of the proof which Seth provided concerning Christ among the dinosaurs, this obviously-Mormonesque painting gives further evidence.
Please tell me that’s a scene from Jurassic Park IV.
Wrong.
Alex,
I love that one.
“Jesus loves the tiny T-rex.
Dino voices oh how sweet.
When in innocence and love,
Like the angels up above.
We with cheerful growls and thorny claws greet.”
listen, and bear in my im only speaking for myself.i have looked at and into most of the so-called religions.and as the saying goes if you look hard enough at anything you will find fault.however,out of all the religions and all the screwy beliefs.i hace found peace.a sense of belonging in mormonism. a purpose.mormonism saved my life when i was at the very pinnacle of taking my own life.am i a nut? crazy?completly off my rocker>perhaps!but,this crazy nut has been rocking my life away with gods grace in complete serenity.and peace for the past 4 years.i hope each of you regardless of what you believe find purpose.love and peace in your very own lives
Hmmm … nary a word that I can see about your explanation for the Book of Mormon. What do you make of it, and Nibley’s exposition of it? Who wrote it? How do you explain the consistency in the historical record created by so many people in the 1820’s, none of whom denied the authenticity of the book, even though many became disaffected? All kinds of details one would have to explain, from the manuscript to the witnesses, to the numerous household members and friends who were involved in the production, storage, events and so forth. It really seems to me much too elaborate a conspiracy not to have fallen apart at some point. How do you address all that?
@Seth, that made me laugh so hard. Thanks for taking this string as a joke. I’m a Mormon and this thread was absolutely hysterical. 😀 I never comment on these things but this was so funny that I felt like it.
And Billy, I’m not going to work to hard to address your comments. But like Eddie said, for some reason it works. It brings a greater sense of peace into your life and you come to know and feel God. You can rational work to explain it all, come up with apologetic arguments, or just spout out questions all you want. When it comes down to it, it works. Mormonism builds my faith in God and the faith of many others. If it doesn’t for you, that’s your own business.
I ask these same questions, and I just about always find answers to them. And each solid answer I find builds my faith a little more. Sometimes the hard questions just take a little harder to find – and you sure won’t find them on a website. 🙂 Tata folks.
Thanks Gemni, I’d totally forgotten about this post.