I was once of the opinion that you could convert the entire world to Christ if you sat the world down and simply told them, with sincere love, that they could feel, that He was their Savior. Indeed, I thought that would inevitably happen. I believed that once a person was converted to Jesus, and followed Him as a disciple, that it did not matter what I believed or thought outside of that one Truth—so long as I lived by what Jesus taught and the Spirit. I think this is a belief that many Mormons might share, and have tried to root out its source—-in my own mind at least.
To me, the core of what Jesus taught was very simple and clear—even if it was mind-blowing, revolutionary, and extremely humbling. It seemed that that was all anyone really needed—everything else was just another conference talk or sermon. The wild variation I saw within the scriptures was merely a function of the fact that the Truth was essentially ineffable, as was the Life. Given the task Jesus gave his disciples–to love as He loved–I did not think you could even precisely explain how to act like a Christian in any particular circumstance without the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The capacity of love was a supernatural gift. It was a gift offered to everyone, and it could be expanded by faith and hard work, but it was the only mark of a true follower of Jesus.
The process of arriving at the Truth also seemed very simple—you could only really know that Jesus was the Christ by the Spirit. These most important truths could only be expressed with the Spirit, and the Spirit was practically instantiated and invoked through love and sincerity. Hence, the root of my belief that all we could convert anyone to Christ by simply finding the right words.
I recognize that this belief was ultimately unstable. But perhaps I saw things in these terms out of a tendency to keep things simple in what I found to be an immensely complex world. Perhaps it was pride–I wanted to believe in truth without reservation, and that demands simplicity. Perhaps it was out of recognition of the difficulty of asking and answering the question: What is truth? As a Christian, the answer was ultimately both obvious and simple. The Truth was what Jesus told of. All other truth flowed from That. Whatever we could work out through reason was true, but without that Truth, what did it matter?
LDS & Evangelical Conversations 
Love is a good and pleasant law; it is not only easy to bear, but it makes the laws of slaves and hirelings tolerable; not destroying but completing them; as the Lord saith: ‘I am not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill’ (Matt. 5.17).
St. Bernard of of Clairvaux.
Good and pleasant, perhaps, but I think it is also a law that leads to the crucifixion of its followers.
Yes I think we can expect a love that suffers.
Jesus wasn’t crucified for Love One Another.
Love is great. But we are not capable of it. Not the way that it is demanded of us…to be selfless for the sake of the neighbor.
We are too much self-lovers for that.
So, for us, faith is more important. For it is faith in Him, in the Truth, that we are reconciled to Him and justified. And this is not our own doing…but a gift of God…given to those who hear the gospel and in that hearing, by God’s grace, come to a living faith.
Jesus wasn’t crucified for Love One Another.
True, I thought he was crucified for claiming to be the King of the Jews and the Messiah.
I don’t claim that there is a causal connection between the law of love and crucifixion, only that there is correlation.
That came together well, Jared. I think it helps to remember that originally at the time of Christ the gospel was passed around and conversions were made by way of oral tradition alone. His and others’ parables commanded the presence of the spirit to understand the mysteries, to peel away the onion to arrive at deeper meanings. Christ provided parables from the common stuff of life so that common people could personally relegate and be rewarded. Parables from the common stuff of life mirror the simplicities you describe that seem to be so necessary to find the truth. Unfortunately, we too often lean on the stories of the Savior With the father doing all the heavy lifting instead of us. Perhaps we can imagine where like Saul who is knocked unconscious and becomes Paul. So we sit at the side of the road of life waiting to be knocked unconscious.
Much too often “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found hard, and not tried.” G.K.Chesterton
Meant to type “so that people could r e l e v a t e….”
“Love is great. But we are not capable of it. Not the way that it is demanded of us…to be selfless for the sake of the neighbor.”
theoldadam,
I agree with you and from his little book on loving God I think Bernard would too.
Anyone who is honest with themselves can see it.
We will all go just so far (in our love for others)…but no farther.
“The capacity of love was a supernatural gift.”
Yes.
Sin.
Reality.
In a perfect world, love would be the most important thing for us.
But in this pride-soaked world, faith is the most important thing for us. For that is the only thing which will save us.
lol good news fail
One of the most frequently quoted scriptures on perfection is part of Christ’s Sermon on the Mount: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48.) The misunderstanding arises as to what we are actually expected to achieve during mortality. If we are to be “complete, finished, fully developed” (alternative translations from Greek texts) perhaps we need to pursue a path that will give us the resources to get it done.
good news fail
What are the resources that allow us to get the job done?
“…we need to pursue a path that will give us the resources to get it done.”
We don’t (can’t) “get it done”.
But in Him…”It is finished”…for us, already.
He is our perfection.
Paul SPECIFICALLY denied that.
Are you kidding me?
Paul is the one who said that “in your Baptism you have put on Christ” (Galatians)
And that “Christ is the end of the law…” (the end of ‘what we do…or don’t do, where righteousness is concerned.) (Romans)
“There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Romans)
He tells the Galatians that if they want to add ‘what they do’ to Christ, then “they sever themselves from grace.”
I could go on and on with these quotes from Paul.
This is pretty short…and sweet :
[audio src="https://theoldadam.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/the-role-of-the-holy-spirit-in-your-sanctification.mp3" /]
A very worthwhile 15 min. of freedom.
The believer can live without any spiritual law at all with that new gospel.
There’s only one gospel.
‘Christ forgives the ungodly’.
If you are ungodly…then that forgiveness is for you.
Jared,
I think the tools (means) of grace are the word of God preached, the sacraments administered, and prayer.
Dear Brother Robonino I want you to know I want you to knao that I am a “member” of the CHURCH OF jesys christ of latter day saints and the HOLY GHOST, and I want you to know thay nI prayed to know if the Holy Ghost would tell me in the form of a dove on either my right shoulder or my left shoulder whether you are right about this new gospel.
And Brother Robonino, would you like to know what the Holy Ghost did? The Holt GHOST landed on my shoulder as a white dove in the form of a dove on my right shoulder and whispered to me in a human voice, YES. Yes, brother Robonino. That it the answer.
Aslo my testimony is this: when the Holy Ghost lands on your shouldwr in the form of a dove it is 1. a white dove and 2. on your right shoulder. I know this is true by the power and authority of the priesyhood. Which was restored. BY A PROPHET OF GOD! Brothe robonino Hea venly, Father says yes. Yes. In the name of thy son Jesus Christ AMEN BROTHER ROBONINO AMEN.
PS Please tell me if it is okay to call a high priest “Brother” high priest or of there is a nother special thing you should call them like High Priest Robonini. I do not think we should call each other nick a names like peanuts or chief because “The Savior” did not use nick a names because he did not call Peter peanuts. That is very disrepectful to call an eElder. Because oyu are a high priest. You said so.
“Jesus Christ’s Ghost.”
Oh brother…
Dear Brother Theoldadam, we are all brothers. Do you know how I know this? I know this because Joseph H. Snith prayed to know which church was true in the Book of Mormon and so you know that HEAVENLY FATHER OF THY SON JESYS CHRIST TOLD HIM? “Joseph Smith we are all brothers and sisters of our heavenly father.” Not the first time Josepht Smith asked because that time it was about which church was an abomination thought. BUT AD IFFERENT TIME!!!
I’m speechless…
Brother theoldadam (I dont know is that your nake name or not it seems like a long name) I would like to tell you my testimony about speechless in the BOOK OF MORMON: ANOTHER TESTAMENT OF JESUS CHRIST and a LOIVING PROPHET OF GOD. I know beother theoldadam from the bottom of my hearty that there was a wicked namnin the Book of Mormon times whose name was Corianton and he taught wicked things against the Mormon church and the President of the CHURCH OF JEUSUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS (“mormon”) and he kept teaching them to everyone in the land of Zarahemla which was a “Book of Mormon land”,
But brother theoldadam sdo you knwo what happened to him? because he was teaching against CHRIST (we say usually jsut ”
CHRIST” because it is mor re respectful than saying his first name which I will tell you is “Jesus”) (but do not say it too often because it is taking the Lord’s name in vain if you say ot more than three times a day) (also say “the Adversary” not his real evil name because I know that when you say his namne you invite him to SUMMON YOU or wqorse on the water)
Brother theoldadam thius nam named Coriantun preached lies about Christ and sais t ayt there would never be a christ because an angel told him (see! he said no angels because of an angel! Just like Frasier), and the President of the Church of JESUC CHRIST OF KATTER DAY SAINTS told him stop. Sotp . Stop now. And Corinaton would not stop because he h he thought that an angel said DO NOT STOP but brother theolfdaadam this was THE ADVERSARY who told him this because the Adversary can pretend to be an angel to trick you, but do you know what to do when he tricks eyou? YPOU SAY: SHAKE MY HAND. If hecan shake your hand he is not the Adversary oir if he will not shake your hand he is anreal angel but if he truies to shake your hand and you do not feel any hand then you know IT IS A TRICK. DO NOT DO IT. Do not do what he says. Brother theoldadam I do not know if you have soething called the “Priesthood” but if you do (“restored”_) then you can put your arm to the square and command the adversary to leave in the name of JESUS CHRISAT AND THE HOLY GHOST! And he will leave. I do not know if it matterws which priesthood you have in order to be able to do that. Brother theolfdadam I will pray and find out and I will also ask someone if they know.
But Vorisntom did not have the right priesthood so when he put his hand to the square to command the Adversary to leave the Adversary said NO and tolf him “NO CHRIST” And then do you know what happened brother theoldadam? Borotyher the Prophet (p”President of the Church of JEsus Christ of LAtter Day Saints (MORMONUISM) told Corianton to STOP and when he did not the LORD closed his motuh so that he could not speak! “sPeechless.” Not the Presidetnf tof the Chirch of Jesus Chist oc Latter Day Saints but Corianton., He could not speak again EVCER FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE until he repented. And then he had to go and tell each and every person that there was a Christ that was going to come. Just LIKE THE FEATHERS. In the pillolw.
Brother theoldadam you can read it yourself in the BOOK OF MROMON: ANOTHER TESTAMENT OF JESUS CHRIST. WILL YOU READ THIS STORY BROTHER THEOLDADAM. And then you can pray to Heavenly Father and ask him if it is true and he will say “Yes.” O KNOW THAT HE WILL. Will you pray right now Brother Theolfdadam. I will ask you about your answer tomorrow.
Your ten rules are meaningless, just so many empty words.
Why would you say that?
Hey I know this may totally surprise you, but it’s possible for you to leave comments about the Ten Rules page actually on the Ten Rules page, instead of here, randomly, in the middle of a different conversation thread. Just an internet pro tip.
Gidgiddoni,
I have read some of the BoM (at random) and found it to be antithetical to Holy Scripture and the gospel.
Thanks, anyhow.
I think robinobishop is pointing out that Gidgiddoni is not following the rules.
Which of the ten is he breaking?
I don’t know what robinobishop was thinking, and your guess is as good as mine as to whether Gidgiddoni is sincere, but I don’t think he is attempting to “change and grow in the perception and understanding of reality” in this discussion.
To paraphrase the Mormon Creed
We believe that men will be punished for their own posts, and not for Gidgiddoni’s transgression.
Oh, I definitely think that Gidgiddoni’s posts invite us to change our perception of reality.
[audio src="https://theoldadam.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/the-role-of-the-holy-spirit-in-your-sanctification.mp3" /]
I gave a copy of that short sermon to a Mormon (young lady that I work with).
She said that she has never heard anything like it in her life. She told me that she has listened to it 5 times in two days.
FWIW